In late July, when trade deadline speculation was at a frenzied high point, La Velle wrote a story for the Star Tribune carrying the headline, "Span not fazed by trade rumors." Yet, I've gotten the sense from some corners that the team's well publicized discussions involving Span created something of a rift between outfielder and organization. And while the aforementioned article relayed the outfielder's stated desire to remain in Minnesota, Span's follow-up quote seemed to carry a sour note:
"This is where I have been my whole career," he said. "But, at the same time, I'm the type of person who has a chip on the shoulder. If they want to trade me and think they can be a better team without me, then do what you have to do.The Twins apparently feel that they have a viable replacement for Span in Ben Revere. And the deadline rumors may or may not have caused some friction. So, could Bill Smith revisit the idea of a Span trade during the hot stove season?
"I just want to play baseball. I'll go somewhere else and play baseball."
On the surface, there appears to be little reason for the front office to seriously consider such a move. Span had the second half of his season wrecked by a concussion, which remains an ongoing concern, and he has finished with a sub-.700 OPS in each of the last two campaigns.
At the same time, he's still only 27 and he's got a very team-friendly contract. Span is due only $3 million next year and remains under team control at a reasonable cost through 2014. He's a disciplined hitter, a speedy base-runner and a prolific defensive outfielder. There's a reason many Twins fans (including myself) were rankled by the Span-for-Storen rumors this past summer. He's a valuable player. If there are teams out there feeling confident that he'll be able to overcome the concussion symptoms and migraines, it's not unthinkable that Span could fetch some decent offers.
In that scenario, it'd be something worth thinking about. The outfield is one area where the Twins look to be flush with talent in the coming years, and there are a lot of needs elsewhere. In addition, one could argue that the Twins should embrace any opportunity to unload one of their various health question marks.
But doing so would mean letting Span, a fan favorite and long-term anchor at a crucial position, go somewhere else and play baseball. Should they be willing?
32 comments:
"He's a disciplined hitter, a speedy base-runner and a prolific defensive outfielder."
He is a very good lead-off hitter there is no question about that but the rest of this quote I have a problem with.
-He is fast but a terrible base runner. He was picked off 9 times in 2010 and is basically scared to try and steal a base. This is not going to get better as he gets older and tries to return from a concussion. Most leadoff hitters should steal 20-30 bases a year which Span can easily do. However, he is way to tenetive for me.
-He is a decent defensive outfielder at best. We have seen throughtout his time in the outfield that he is not a pure centerfielder. He is terrified of running into the wall, comes up short on balls, and projects to be a better corner outfielder.
-Ben Revere is not without his faults. His arm is even worse than most people could of imagined and he struggled to get on base filling in for Span.
-However, Revere was only 23 and had only a handful of bats at Rochester before being thrust into the big show. Span spent 8 seasons in the minors and at the time most people thought he would be a bust. So much so that the Twins traded for Carlos Gomez.
-Revere is a human highlight reel in centerfield and will only get better as he becomes more comfortable. He has to learn to take better routes to the ball but can catch up to anything with his speed.
-Revere has the ablity to steal 60-80 bases a year if he can get on base more often. He is not afraid to get thrown out and will run in any situation.
-I prefer to have a outfield with Revere in CF and Span in either LF or RF. Span could lead off and Revere could either hit 2nd or at the bottom of the lineup. I would hope the team would dangle Span out on the market to see what they could get for him. A Span for Storen deal looks pretty good to me. I prefer Span and another player to TB for pitcher James Shields.
-Either way Span has turned into a very good player and his contract is about as team friendly as you can get. The Twins should only trade him for the right player(s) in return that will help the team in the long run.
I really like Denard Span, but if trading him allows the Twins to address another gaping hole (I'm looking at you, middle infield) with a long term solution, I can live with Ben Revere for now.
Problem is, I have a hard time seeing the Twins getting full value for Span coming off the concussion. I wouldn't trade him for a single bullpen arm, no matter how much we need one.
The Twins are likely going to lose Jason Kubel and Michael Cuddyer this offseason. You can't let everyone go and expect minor leaguers to be ready. I've looked at the Twins outfield prospects and most look 3-4 years away except for Joe Benson and possibly my favorite Oswaldo Arcia. Span is too valuable as a leadoff man for the Twins to shop him. After the concussion they'd be selling short too which is a no-no.
During this dismal season, we all wanted to find some silver lining. Revere's speed and excitement was something to talk about and try to point to as something that we could look forward in the future. Personally, I felt like the Twins were overselling him to try to maintain fan interest. Revere may turn out to be a decent player, but he's not there, yet.
Handing Revere the CF job and trading Span would the equivalent of handing Cassiokia the SS job and trading Hardy. If the Twins do it, we'll all be talking about how dumb it was next October.
During this dismal season, we all wanted to find some silver lining. Revere's speed and excitement was something to talk about and try to point to as something that we could look forward in the future. Personally, I felt like the Twins were overselling him to try to maintain fan interest. Revere may turn out to be a decent player, but he's not there, yet.
Handing Revere the CF job and trading Span would the equivalent of handing Cassiokia the SS job and trading Hardy. If the Twins do it, we'll all be talking about how dumb it was next October.
I would love to see the Twins try to deal Span for an everyday SS and I have the perfect candidate - Hanley Ramirez. They're about the same age and Ramirez is also coming off an injury shortened season. However, I know this is extremely unlikely given the fact that Ramirez makes $11M/year. The other issue is that if Span is not back - and Kubel is not re-signed, this team is dangerously short of experience and talent in the OF. Of course if you want to get really radical you could get Ramirez at SS and then Move to Mauer to LF for an OF of Mauer, Revere, and Cuddyer - and also sign the Reds' catcher - Ramon Hernandez. I'm not saying this is the only or even best option, just that I'd like to see this team go for a bigger makeover - not just do a little tweaking.
I have no problem with the Twins moving Span or Revere if they can get quality in return. The Twins seem intent on playing both in the same outfield in 2012 and I see that as a receipe for disaster long term. The Twins have no power, why would you want both of these guys in the same outfield? I like Span but why is he afraid to steal bases? Revere can run like a deer and plays a great CF but he can't throw to save his life and his hitting is yet to be proven. If I had a choice, I would move Revere but he will not bring back as much in return. A tough choice because both seem to be really nice guys and they each have their pluses and minuses but if you don't move one of them soon, their value could drop or you could find yourself in a situation like the Twins were in during the 2009 season with GO GO Gomez. Lots of teams need center fielders, the Twins appear to have an excess right now so fill some needs with a trade. The Twins lost 99 games for Pete's sake, Twins players are not as good as we think they are.
I can understand Span being a potential trade asset in that he's a very attractive commodity to other teams. His D in CF is solid, he's got discipline at the plate, and enough pop in his bat to be a solid hitter. He can bat leadoff, and if he's a superior defender in LF in a pinch and hits well enough when healthy to make it a reasonable move. With a friendly contract that has him under control at reasonable prices through 2014...yeah, teams are interested in him.
But I don't think the Twins should trade him right now. Revere may be the long-term answer in CF...but we don't know that yet. And even if he is, we don't have a LF that we can count on either (especially since we may lose both Cuddyer & Kubel, which puts us short in RF too!). While we have a lot of OF prospects, none of them look ready for MLB just yet. Or do we really want this team to count on Tosoni & Benson for 500-600 ABs next season?
I think the Twins need to keep Span, but if Revere is going to play Span has to move to LF. revere's pop-gun arm hurts more in LF than in CF and Revere's range & speed are lessened in LF. Span's proven he's a terrific defensive LF and his arm won't kill the team. (Sadly, Gardy would rather cater to Span's desire to play CF than put his best defensive alignment in the field!)
We just don't know enough about where our OF is to justify a trade of Span right now. However, if a trade is in the works, it damn well better be for one of the following: starting pitching, power hitting in the OF, or starting middle INF. If Span gets traded for relievers, someone needs to set Bill Smith on fire.
Handing Revere the CF job and trading Span would the equivalent of handing Cassiokia the SS job and trading Hardy.
The difference is that you're getting something significant in return for Span, as opposed to a couple marginal minor-league relievers. Obviously the idea of trading him hinges on another team liking him enough to give up something of legitimate value.
If Span is traded, you're into a rebuilding phase, which is something fans and the FO seem to want to continue to deny. There are no legitimate leadoff hitting options in the traditional sense left in the organization if Span is gone. Revere's sub .300 OBP isn't going to cut it, and we know Mauer belongs in the middle somewhere unless you're powerful enough lineup wide to have him bat 2.
I'm all for prospects and rebuilding if a team is willing to give us a few pieces for Span (no, we're not getting an ace pitcher for him), I just hope Twins fans understand that it's going to be tough for Revere to hang on to the #1 slot, and he's going to take his lumps there while he possibly developes into a good leadoff hitter, a big IF.
I wouldn't trust the FO to get a decent return for Span. If he gets traded, I just hope it's not for a relief pitcher, even if it is an excellent reliever.
Personally, I don't think the Twins should look at moving Span. As some of the other posters have noted, he has some flaws. Overall, he's a very good player. Without him, I think the Twins are pretty weak in the outfield right now. The Twins gave Detroit a bargain when they unloaded Delmon Young. I think it's pretty unlikely that both Kubel and Cuddyer come back, and I wouldn't be all that surprised if neither returned. But right now, we're looking at Revere as an every day player. Which is fine, even though I think most people agree he's not quite ready for that. Tons of potential and tons of things he does very well, but overall, he may be a year away from being an effective starting caliber player. Cuddyer, if he's re-signed. Then who? Kubel, if he's re-signed, even though everyone likes to complain about how poor of a fielder he is? Convert Plouffe to a left fielder? Or Mauer? Or rely on Tosoni? Benson, who likely needs another year (if not longer) in the minors?
I just have a hard time picturing a realistic trade scenario where trading Span will make sense in my mind. Sure, the Twins have a ton of holes to file, but I think we create another one if Span is traded.
Besides, I kind of like picturing how much ground a Span/Revere CF/LF combo would cover. I have to think it could help minimize the effect of having such an extreme pitch-to-contact pitching staff.
I may be too optimistic, but I still feel that the Twins have a chance to compete next year with some minor tweaking. Okay, it may be more than just some minor tweaking: add a league-average shortstop, a decent backup catcher, a right-handed bat and some bullpen depth; then pray that Mauer, Morneau, Span, Liriano and Baker can find their 2009-2010 mojo.
I think those above-mentioned needs can be achieved via free agency rather than trade; in fact, I don't know if trading Span could get the Twins significantly more than what is available via free agency. I can't see how a more-or-less above-average centerfielder (Span) with durability issues and performance questions is going to fetch significantly more on the trade market this year than a more-or-less above-average shortshop (Hardy) with durability issues and performance questions fetched us last year. Granted, Span's contract situation is more attractive than Hardy's was at this point, but I would argue that his recent injuries make him riskier.
I would like to see the Twins start out next season with Span leading off and playing center, and Revere batting ninth and playing left. (They could switch positions. I don't feel strongly either way) By the All-Star break we will know if this Twins core has another run in them. If it doesn't look good, then start trading away players. Hopefully Span will be fully recovered and have more value at that point.
Clearly I should have refreshed my browser before commenting. Then I could have just said "I second what Matt and Mike wrote" and saved myself a bunch of typing.
Anonymous must be Jim Souhan.... Hanley Ramirez for a Denard Span (regardless of who else would be included) is absolutely preposterous!
I'd consider anyone on the current roster trade bait if we got a good enough return. However, I think the team has too many holes to fill and too few marketable assets to try to improve by the trade market. Free agency would be a much more sensible route.
I'd be hesitant to actively shop Span because:
1) We've got him locked in at a pretty reasonable long-term deal
2) His trade value isn't exactly at its peak.
3) If Cuddyer and Kubel leave, you're looking at a Tosoni-Revere-Plouffe outfield.
4) I'm not totally sold on Ben Revere yet.
5) The thought of Smith making any trades scares me because of his track record.
Until Span has a healthy season, I doubt his trade worth is very much...with his concussion/inner ear issues who knows what other teams think. Think Morneau
Until Span has a healthy season, I doubt his trade worth is very much...with his concussion/inner ear issues who knows what other teams think. Think Morneau
See, that's the thing. Other teams might not be thinking this way. Twins fans are especially anxious about Span because we've watched this whole ordeal unfold with Morneau, but most clubs haven't had to deal with something like that. Generally it's expected that a 27-year-old will be able to bounce back from this type of incident.
" The Twins lost 99 games for Pete's sake, Twins players are not as good as we think they are."
Valencia and Cuddyer are the only players on the opening day roster who appeared in over 100 games. Its plain stupid to evaluate players based on how the team did.
"Generally it's expected that a 27-year-old will be able to bounce back from this type of incident."
Other teams are not that dumb. Span didn't bounce back, he missed most of the rest of the season.
revere's pop-gun arm hurts more in LF than in CF
Not to make too much of this, but the above statement is 100% incorrect. Revere's arm will give away fewer extra bases playing LF than in CF.
As for the blog, I don't think the Twins have the OF depth any more to seriously entertain dealing Span, not to mention trading him while his value is down would be just another example of Bill Smith's incompetence.
Given Bill Smith's track record making trades, who's confident the Twins will get value for anyone? He's become the Matt Millen of baseball, complete with Teflon and apparently undiminished reputation.
Given Bill Smith's track record making trades, who's confident the Twins will get value for anyone? He's become the Matt Millen of baseball, complete with Teflon and apparently undiminished reputation.
If you want to test that theory, Rich, bring some "Fire Bill Smith" signs to Target Field and see if Billy Boy sends thugs or Bo-Bo's to dispatch you. That's what Millen did in Detroit, and he threw those folks out of Ford Field.
"trading him while his value is down would be just another example of Bill Smith's incompetence."
Unless, of course, Span never comes back to play well. In which case, his failure to trade Span last summer will be another example of Bill Smith's incompetence.
We know the conclusion, only the facts that support it change.
"not to mention trading him while his value is down would be just another example of Bill Smith's incompetence."
Yeah, but that would seem to be his trademark. He made it very obvious that the Twins wanted to deal Liriano, couldn't get decent offers for him after 2010. He made it very obvious that the Twins wanted to trade Slowey, couldn't get decent offers for him. He made it very obvious the Twins wanted to deal Delmon Young, and he traded him away for an extraordinarily low return.
And he traded Hardy when his value was pretty low.
Throw in that there is virtually no chance the Twins retain both Cuddyer and Kubel, last season was shot, and he still wasn't able to get any return for either player.
I'm not a fan of cleaning house and firing everybody like so many other fans of every team jump to when their team has a bad year. I don't think that makes sense, for a variety of reasons. But I think that Bill Smith has had a long enough run at this point to demonstrate that he really isn't very good at running a baseball team. He's had a few "OK" moves, but so many awful ones that there really aren't many around who think he can improve this team through trades.
"trading him while his value is down would be just another example of Bill Smith's incompetence."
Unless, of course, Span never comes back to play well. In which case, his failure to trade Span last summer will be another example of Bill Smith's incompetence.
We know the conclusion, only the facts that support it change.
@TT- yeah, some people will never change their opinions, no matter what happens. But I don't think Smith should have traded Span this past summer at all, and I'll keep that opinion even if Span is never the same player. I don't think it's reasonable to expect that Span will never be the same, especially three months ago. Thinking he'll get back on track, in that sense, is a good risk to take.
Mike -
The Twins had decided Hardy wasn't worth offering arbitration to. Given that conclusion, he was happy to get anything for him.
The same is true of Delmon Young. The Twins were seeing him as a likely non-tender. So they traded away his last year since he is a free agent after next season.
I think they expected Slowey to be in the rotation this year. His inability to work out of the bullpen and his injuries have made it likely he will be non-tendered.
You will notice a pattern there. These are all players who have become expensive. Teams don't give up as much when they have to take on salary.
I am not prepared to accept the argument that the Twins should start trading promising young players before they reach arbitration just to get the best return.
"Thinking he'll get back on track, in that sense, is a good risk to take"
I agree.
@TT- I don't think the Twins ever acted like they wanted Slowey in the rotation this past year. If they did want him in the rotation this year, they would have put him there, particularly after he was the best starter in spring training. They were merely trying to showcase him for a trade, but teams won't pay high when they know you're looking to unload.
I realize Delmon Young was going to get expensive later, but the Twins were still pretty clear for quite a while that they were looking to unload him. Couple those factors, and they couldn't get a decent return. He certainly had a higher value had he been traded to a team for a full year of cheap service.
I don't think Hardy got expensive. He got more expensive, but I think he's signed to a pretty reasonable contract right now, given what he provides to a team. But I'll accept what you say as true- that Smith was happy to get anything for him. That's probably pretty accurate.
And that's what worries me about a Bill Smith trade. That he was happy to get Jim Hoey for JJ Hardy.
They wouldn't pull the trigger on span for a quality closer and his value has plummeted since then. My guess is that his trade value will be about nill. At his best he an average mlb leadoff hitter "as is" he's often injured and missed 8 weeks due to a concussion. As always, the Twins messed this one up too.
Mike -
If the Twins thought Slowey was the best starter in spring training, he would have been in the rotation.
As for Hardy, they were going to let him go for nothing. You might not agree with that, but that's where they were. They also got rid of Brendan Harris's salary at the same time. They got a couple of good arms in return.
If Hoey didn't have control problems, he wouldn't have been available. I think it was a decent gamble. You don't find many pitchers who throw that hard.
I don't think most teams care whether the other team is "trying to unload" a player. They are looking at what the player can do for them. Young certainly didn't do a lot this summer to indicate he was going to be a big contributor in the playoffs.
The Twins probably could have gotten more in July, but they thought they were still contenders then. Instead of getting their injured players back and productive, as hoped, the injury situation got worse.
If the Twins could have had (or can) trade him for Storen and Lombo Jr, then it is a no-brainer. Take the money you save from Nathan's 2012 contract ($10.5M) and Span's 2012 contract ($3M) and go after Gomes and Willingham as FAs to complete the OF. Throw-in Blackburn/Mijares/Burnett/add-a-name-from the 2011 pen not named Perkins if you have to balance the trade with the Nats.
I just don't get that love for Span (which comes from the same people who thought he was a bust 3 years ago.) He is below average with the bat and on the bases, he is a plus defender, and he is on his prime. He is a great guy. I get that. Move on
Unless, of course, Span never comes back to play well. In which case, his failure to trade Span last summer will be another example of Bill Smith's incompetence.
We know the conclusion, only the facts that support it change.
I was against trading Span for a reliever last summer, and won't change my opinion on that based Span's health, now or in the future.
I am against trading Span now, for reasons explained, and won't change my opinion on that regardless of how well Span does going forward.
Do try to refrain from speaking for me, TT.
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